Kelly Rigg (00:05.389)
Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Big Home Ed conversations. You are here with myself, Kelly Rigg, Home Ed mum of two and founder of Offroading Motherhood. I'm a qualified mindset coach and I've got a real passion for working with families as they kind of transition into the home ed world. And so a lot of what I do is supporting them with that. And I'm joined as always by my good friend, Ashley Vanerio. So she's basically another fellow Home Ed mum of three and an ex primary teacher.
And we started this podcast because we were kind of just sick of talking about the myths. We didn't want to talk about the little things anymore. The, the, I don't know, all the things that people ask us, the typical questions that us home educators get asked every time we speak to people. We wanted to talk about the big stuff, the stuff that we care about, the stuff that actually as alternative educators means something to us. So we hope that as you kind of pull up a chair, join us at the table, have a cup of coffee with us, that you actually feel like you're part of that conversation. Hopefully it will inspire you to.
Ashley Vanerio (00:46.562)
Thank you.
Kelly Rigg (01:02.425)
think differently about what's kind of going on in your world, maybe kind of open your mind to a different perspective or offer you another thought. And do remember that we always want you as part of this conversation. So come and talk to us. If you enjoy an episode or don't enjoy an episode and you've got something you want to say, come and have a conversation with us. Our handle his big home ed podcast on Instagram and TikTok only. So you can always reach out to us there. So hopefully we'll hear from you a little bit after this one. But today, what we wanted to do was obviously
The episode that you guys will have already heard from last week was myself and Wendy, who is from Education Otherwise. So she is the co-chair of Education Otherwise and essentially is an incredibly intelligent woman, very, very like, well, she just knows so much about what is going on with the fight for our rights as home educators. She's recently written a book as well about kind of the history of home education. So she's just an incredibly intelligent woman.
And essentially, I always find her really reassuring. And it helps me to come just get a bit grounded and to understand what she's had to say. And obviously Ashley wasn't there for the conversation. So she's had a catch up and she's had a listen. And essentially she's like, I've got notes. I've got questions. I want to talk about it more. So we thought we'd do a kind of reaction episode, getting into the conversation a little bit deeper, maybe kind of expressing some of our concerns or frustrations or the ways it's making us feel, the fears that we're feeling a little bit as well.
but also hopefully to kind of further reassure you that the community is really strong and that we all care so much about each other and about our children that ultimately we don't go down easily. So I want to kind of really emphasise that. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to kick it straight over to Ashley and let her kind of, she's going to kind of run us through her thoughts because she had some really interesting kind of reactions off the back of what Wendy had to say. And we're just going to dig into them a little bit more.
Ashley Vanerio (02:45.218)
Thank
Ashley Vanerio (03:00.504)
Yeah, thanks. So I think that first of all, just like you were saying, hearing from Wendy is always such a treat and she just approaches things in a manner that feels really easy to digest. She breaks it down. She is always so calming in her approach to things as well that I just really appreciate hearing from her. think it allows people to really
understand what's happening in a way that doesn't feel aggressive or challenging. just, it just is what it is. And I love hearing from her. So huge thank you to Wendy for, for doing that conversation. And the first thing that really struck me from early in the conversation was when she was just talking about what we can do as home educators, particularly at this stage. And she mentioned that petition that needs a hundred thousand signatures. And I.
Admittedly, I'm not super tapped in and following what's going on in terms of home education rights, because it is a lot to take in and it does cause anxiety and just another mental load for me to carry around. But I have not heard of this petition. So that was something where I'm thinking, gosh, we can raise awareness for that. That's something we can do. We can pass it out to our little.
know, WhatsApp groups and make sure that people are seeing it and sharing it with their friends and family and other home educators. So I think if we can just find that petition and also any of the open letters that you mentioned and link it here for people that might allow them to access it as well if they don't know about it.
Kelly Rigg (04:38.381)
Yeah, I think we should definitely get them added to the description for this episode so you guys can find it and we'll certainly share it out into our little community and the people who kind of follow the podcast and that as well. I think one of the things that we maybe are seeing a bit of a challenge this time, so many people who maybe are new to the home-ed community don't realise that we've been fighting against this register and some of the things that are in this current kind of children's wellbeing and schools bill for many, many years and actually
The register was put through a couple of years ago and Wendy at Education Otherwise was the person who spearheaded the petition that was basically the biggest ever hand-signed petition that was submitted to government and we had it thrown out. And essentially she has tried again this time with the support of lawyers and MPs and Lords and people who are 100 % on our side who are paying attention to this fight and have been with us for years.
Ashley Vanerio (05:22.35)
Mm.
Kelly Rigg (05:36.813)
And they came up with this petition to try and obviously get the right response from the government. And what's really hard is that it's a really positive thing that so many others this time are aware of the fight, are putting their efforts in, are doing all the things that they are doing as well. And I think one of the difficulties we find is that when you've got a lot of different people who feel very passionately about something, who are all working really hard to do their various inputs into a fight.
that maybe sometimes it can actually spread it out and make it look a bit smaller. And that's such a shame. Because ultimately, I think what happened last time is we had this really funnelled approach where everyone just jumped on board the exact same thing. We all hand signed this petition, had this one massive petition put into government. And this time, think lots of people have been running petitions. They've been doing lots of different open letters. We've been seeing lots of people kind of putting out different kind of words about it and
Ashley Vanerio (06:21.838)
Mm.
Ashley Vanerio (06:30.648)
Right.
Kelly Rigg (06:33.515)
all sorts of different things. so unfortunately, that sometimes means that marches and all sorts of stuff. So lots of people have been doing those great things, really powerful things. you kind of people tend to feel like they have contributed when they've done one or two of those things. And they don't necessarily need they don't feel like they need to do all of them. And so what I guess I'm trying to kind of get across is that if you have done one or two of those things, it's also worth trying to pick a thing like the petition.
Ashley Vanerio (06:51.362)
Right, yeah.
Kelly Rigg (07:01.475)
that we are all doing, everybody does that too, as well as whatever else you want to be doing and offering into the fight as well. If you want to go to a march as well, great. If you want to send a letter, great, whatever. But maybe if we can all bring back a bit of a rally behind this petition that's been put out and see if we can get those numbers up, then maybe it will give us that oomph again and show them how many of us there actually are that care about this. And I think that's what's really important here is to try and make sure that we demonstrate the numbers.
of people who actually care. And it isn't just home educators who care, it's teachers, it's other parents. There are lots and lots of Lords and MPs in that that aren't happy with this either and recognising that actually it's undoing a lot of good work that's happened as well. So yeah, that's worth considering. So we'll make sure we share that petition and we will put it out into the actual description of this episode. So if you haven't yet signed it, let's rally behind it. Let's support Wendy like we all did last time.
And let's see if we can get that up to the 100,000 signatures. I think that would be really amazing to see that actually reach its goal. So we'll definitely give it another big push.
Ashley Vanerio (08:05.75)
Yeah, great points. it sounds like getting to a hundred thousand actually means something. It's not just a target number. It actually means they have to talk about it. And so that's huge. Like we can help for that. yeah. Okay, great. And then the next thing, her comment on the request to offer GCSEs testing at no cost to home ed children. Because right now, obviously there is currently a charge, but it's free if you're in school, in traditional school.
And the response that they don't want this to encourage people to home educate. So that's the reason for not offering it. I was just like, I think by jaw dropped because home educating is legal. So what does that mean if they're openly admitting to treating this group of children differently because they're, they're choosing a different legal path. They're just really showing their cards with that one. And it's beyond upsetting to me. It feels like.
Kelly Rigg (09:00.78)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (09:03.534)
Punishment to me frankly and I can't understand how it's still allowed to be this way There should be an equal approach to each group all groups and from a legal perspective I can't understand how it's not it that to me does feel different from home educating in the US and so I yeah, I just it just really I was like wow that is a bold response that they gave her so yeah unfortunate
Kelly Rigg (09:08.558)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (09:27.873)
Yeah, I think sometimes as well, I think we forget that our hang-ups and our stereotypes and our beliefs aren't all facts and the person who said that clearly has the belief that home education is not what they want people to be doing, they want them to send their kids to school and they may have reasons for those beliefs that stem from
positive reasons. They may genuinely mean that because they believe that a child in school is going to get a better quality of education. They may genuinely believe that. Yeah, I really hope so too. And I think the alternative is that that person just is just being judgmental. And unfortunately, we can form an awful lot of our belief systems based not at all off of facts, but 100 % off of opinions. And
Ashley Vanerio (09:51.596)
Yeah. Yes.
Ashley Vanerio (09:59.35)
I hope they do if they're saying that. hope that is their belief. Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (10:10.881)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (10:19.351)
Home education has had stereotyping thrown at it for generations. I know that before I started home educating, like again, we don't talk about the myths here, but we know what they are and we know what people say about home educating families. I don't need to even say them, I know that you all know. And I think ultimately, if we have MPs and Lords sitting there believing these things about home education as if they are a fact.
Ashley Vanerio (10:32.087)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (10:44.481)
and we are sitting here going, no, please listen to us. Like we're just good parents. We're just people who care about our kids. And sure, we do want to do things a little bit differently. And sure, we don't necessarily teach them the full curriculum. And sure, we do sometimes allow them to get to things a little bit slower than other people might make their kids get to them. Or we aren't so hugely focused on success and high earning. And we actually want them to do jobs that make them feel happy and satisfied and allow them to have a well-rounded life. Like, you know what I mean? Like, sure, we don't necessarily align with mainstream values.
Ashley Vanerio (10:44.557)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (11:10.605)
No.
Kelly Rigg (11:14.167)
And that might seem a little scary because I can understand how we form our mainstream values as a society and we all like work so hard to attain them. And ultimately we actually often people aren't very happy when they are desperately trying to attain high social standards. They actually would much prefer to be a little scruffier or a little slower or to take their time.
or to see their kids more or to rest more or to nap sometimes instead of having to do loads of DIY or whatever it is, right? Like we have all these weird rules and expectations put on us. And I think ultimately we're dealing with people here who in that essay coming back around to what he said that we don't want to encourage people to choose home education. We have to therefore accept there is some level of agenda behind that. There is a little bit of manipulation going on.
Ashley Vanerio (11:46.583)
you
Kelly Rigg (12:06.905)
and probably a lot, without the kind of getting feisty about it, it's recognising that ultimately that there could indeed be some agenda there. And actually, them being that transparent, we cannot ignore that. We have got to recognise it as parents, as people. We have got to remember that people who are in government, who put these bills through, have an agenda behind those bills. Like, we know that not everything that they are thinking
is put out there and explained for us to know about. Like some of the reasons why they put these things through, it might look a certain way to us. So like, for example, when schooling first started, parents would have been paying a small amount of money to local churches for their kids to go to school. And the government offered free education as a way to help and to allow parents to work easier and to keep more money in their own pockets. And that sounds really altruistic, doesn't it? It sounds really amazing.
Ashley Vanerio (12:40.546)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (13:05.987)
But we all know that actually part of that process was a power grab and it was trying to...
Ashley Vanerio (13:13.538)
to go and keep you away.
Ashley Vanerio (13:19.214)
So start with, and we know that part of that process was a power grab.
Kelly Rigg (13:26.051)
And we know that part of that process was a power grab. It was trying to get parents to go to work. It was trying to stop churches from having so much of an influence over the home messaging, the values that people were having at It was trying to stop farmers from just wanting to live out in their fields, dictating the rules. And it wanted them in the industries. wanted them in the factories working for the new goals of these big industrial leaders who were our government. And I think we just have to kind of remember that
with every message that goes out there, there is potentially another message right behind it. And that kind of vibe of we don't want to encourage people to home educate. And actually, since so many people are choosing home education, we're now cracking down on it because we're worried about all of these children. It's just like, what are you really worried about? I think if we want to like, actually ask the question, I think we know what they're really worried about. And that's kind of a loss of control over messaging and
and obviously being able to kind of force the country to go in a set direction. Because as a government, they've got a big group of people who they're basically trying to keep an economy running and jobs opening and people going into work. And maybe they can forecast massive changes for a country if lots and lots of people decide to home educate. I wonder what they're worried about. I wonder what they can see forecasted for the future if hundreds of thousands of people pull their kids out of schools. It makes you wonder, doesn't it?
Ashley Vanerio (14:30.136)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (14:55.308)
Yeah, it does. I think that, I guess I feel obviously there's a long term here, right? That could be a thought that they're having. But even if they're not, even if it's just feeling like maybe they truly feel like this is the key, this is the answer to protecting and ensuring that there is no abuse happening to children.
It's got to be getting them in the schools because that's what we think is the answer. If they truly feel that, then I think their approach is wrong, right? If when we're threatened, when anyone is threatened, they hide, right? They want to run away, they want to find ways around it, they want to avoid. But if you approach people with respect and compassion and work together to find the right solution, instead of this argumentative, this is what it is.
Listen to Wendy listen to what she's saying listen to all the other people and and they're like you mentioned there are people all over There are lords there are peers there are People everywhere that are saying guys. This is not actually solving what we think it's solving You're going to get a much better outcome all around and of course
I'm not saying that this is going to happen. I wish it would. I wish we could have this deeper conversation. I wish we could sit these people around the table and say, let's actually look at some statistics here. Let's actually dive into this. Let's look at how this has happened in the past. Let's look closer at this case that came up that sort of spurred all this into action. Was that child really home educated? Really? No. And so I think for a government that's so focused on getting home educated children to register with the local authority,
Kelly Rigg (16:16.95)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (16:26.659)
Hmm... No.
Ashley Vanerio (16:36.106)
You can see how Wendy mentioned Wales. Wales was doing that successfully. I don't think it was their intent, but Wendy mentioned that during COVID, the government gave the local authority, what was it, 200 pounds per home ed family. And families were coming to Wendy asking, how do I register so I can get that money? I mean, if they come at it at a better solution, especially if they're going to offer some money, because we all know home educators spend a ton of fortune.
Kelly Rigg (16:53.881)
you
Kelly Rigg (17:02.745)
Mm.
Ashley Vanerio (17:04.494)
especially in the UK, that you will, yeah, you're going to bring all those families right to you, you know, and all this time that we've spent arguing about this and working on this bill, whether for or against it, could have been avoided in a different approach. I don't know. So that just was interesting to me.
Kelly Rigg (17:06.403)
Hmm. Yeah, life is so expensive these days.
Kelly Rigg (17:24.217)
Yeah, and that's the thing. I and I know I'm like rehashing, but I know that the kind of the concept of like you catch more flies with honey and also the ultimately cost of living crisis has meant that most families are being put under tremendous pressure right now. And ultimately as taxpaying UK citizens, like we've paid our taxes, we paid our dues. If we send our kids to school, they will get that funding given to that school to help take care of their education. In my opinion, again, it's that kind of othering. It's that
Ashley Vanerio (17:32.48)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (17:51.459)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (17:54.041)
punishment kind of vibe. It's that what is it that we've decided that families that are UK citizens who are basically their child is owed that money. That's part of their rights as a UK citizen is access to a good education. And essentially, they want to kind of crack down on the quality of education that home educators are offering, but they're not willing to kind of put their money where their mouth is. Give people a real choice, actually allow them to make this decision.
Ashley Vanerio (17:56.076)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (18:21.241)
give them the money that would be otherwise intended for a school to take care of them, or even half of it frankly would make a huge difference to most families, and allow them to provide a great quality of education at home if that is what serves that family. And I mean, that's the thing, I mean, it's a whole other conversation, but it's, for me, I just think that there is an argument that says that if they actually started recognising that putting their money where their mouth is, supporting children to get these grades, to get great GCSEs or outcomes, to go on to higher education.
If they still want them to have great outcomes, then they have to actually start recognising that if more people are going to choose home education, then actually we deserve equal rights to the money that would otherwise be sent on our child's education and to allow them to have an education. Not for the parents to just spend on whatever they fancy, but you can literally be claiming it back with receipts or whatever for reasonable things. But ultimately, that would mean that you then free up some of the income that you guys are generating as a family.
for food, for clothes, and for shoes. Why do they destroy shoes so fast? I don't even know what it is about kids to destroy shoes every five minutes. But the point is that we just have to start recognising that the cost of living is making things very hard for most people. And I think where a lot of families are now working from home, are working more flexibly, they are starting to recognise that actually home education is an option if their child is not happy in school. And that ultimately brings back around to this conversation actually.
Ashley Vanerio (19:20.514)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (19:27.31)
Thank
Kelly Rigg (19:47.415)
why are people deregistering in the first place? Let's stop cracking down on the people who've chosen to do it and let's start asking them why they did. And let's start actually doing something about the reasons because they are good reasons, they are really good reasons. And we really need to start listening because it's just not okay. And I think the biggest campaign around this is the are you listening now hashtag, which is a lot of people kind of sharing stories of why they deregistered and why they decided not to go to school anymore.
So that's another thing you can get behind as well. If you have got a story to share, post about it or write a letter and use the hashtag and tell them to go look up the hashtag and to go and listen to some of the stories and posts that people have put out there about it because that's another message that's been trying to be like, are you listening? Like, you're clearly worried about this, but are you actually listening? Are you actually paying attention to why or are you just getting annoyed with us and wanting to find us too? So it's just a bit frustrating, I guess that, yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (20:42.67)
you
Kelly Rigg (20:45.027)
We're having these same conversations with the government every couple of years, trying to get them to hear us. And like everything, progress is always slow. But I have actually felt quite optimistic that we are getting the opportunity, small little moments as it may be, to be seen and to be heard. And the bigger the community gets, the more of an impact it can have when we have the government kind of wanting to gain more control over it. And we actually have the opportunity to...
Ashley Vanerio (20:53.24)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (21:14.177)
shout louder. So I think we just have to remember how vital we all are in that kind of, like as Wendy was saying, that every molecule in the tree comes together to make the tree, it wouldn't be a tree without you. And so try to remember that no matter how new to it you are, even if you're not even doing it yet, but you care about it you want to do it, or you're a teacher and you see great value in it or whatever it is, back it, support us, make sure that people know that you don't agree with it either. Because yeah, the more...
Ashley Vanerio (21:25.494)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (21:36.578)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (21:44.063)
more volume we can create around this the more will be heard so as I say I feel quite optimistic about that I like that we're being heard even a little bit like even just a little bit we are starting to get more sway so yeah I think that can only have a positive effect for the future.
Ashley Vanerio (21:46.03)
Thank
Ashley Vanerio (21:57.25)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think that it's important to note that we're probably always going to be the minority. don't ever see, I just, right now, as you mentioned, change is slow. Most families require two incomes. People have a certain quality of life they want to maintain. I don't ever see home education being the bulk of what's happening in terms of education across the globe. It's just, you know, I...
even just looking at the UK, right? I don't think that'll ever be the case. There are plenty of people who have zero interest in home educating or who frankly would not be interested enough in it to provide a good enough education to their kids, right? We all know that. So I think that like you're saying, it's great that we're getting a voice now at this moment. That is important. And I think that it's also important for the community to have.
Kelly Rigg (22:43.747)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (22:59.662)
home education there. think it adds flavour to our culture. think it is important just for diversity. you know, Wendy had mentioned how we want to be careful about not shaving off the edges of a square peg so it fits into a round hole. And that really struck, like, it struck me because it's exactly the reason so many people homeschool. They want their child to be a child, to not feel early bullying or stress.
to really develop their sense of self and their confidence and to be able to learn in a supportive environment that encourages creativity and individual thought. And yes, that can happen in a traditional school, but it often doesn't, at least not the way that maybe we feel at home. And so many of the successful businesses in our world's entrepreneurs, they come from a non-traditional education background. And we don't wanna lose our future Einstein's of the world. We want that.
Kelly Rigg (23:48.984)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (23:53.634)
I'm not saying it has to be for everyone. I would never say that. I'm not even saying it'll be for us forever, but it is important to allow it to exist and to not make it so cumbersome, to not put up so many roadblocks that people feel so put upon, so pressed down that they just give up because it just becomes too hard, too expensive, too time consuming to maintain.
Kelly Rigg (23:59.929)
you
Kelly Rigg (24:13.369)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly. And I think that kind of brings us round to the point that when she was kind of talking about the changes that we might feel as home educators, if this comes into play. And I know that the element around kind of how much information we might have to give to local authorities is in dispute. And we have got Lords pushing back against it. And we even had a concession in the last debate I saw where they did say that it is under discussion about kind of how much would be reasonable to even be expected, because ultimately, you've got the concept of being able to
Ashley Vanerio (24:27.842)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (24:33.902)
Mm-hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (24:41.239)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (24:48.697)
actually even contact the local authority every two weeks with an update is just like, holy moly, I can't even imagine having to like have this in my diary or even being able to remember everything that we've done. Like that means we'd have to go back through my calendar and have to think about everything we've done. I'd have to be making a note of every single day. I'd have to be keeping some sort of report. There's no way. And what will happen is it end up being a gist.
Ashley Vanerio (24:54.274)
Right? Right? I was like, wow.
Kelly Rigg (25:10.485)
and it won't even be very accurate. And so like, what is even the point? And then even if you did submit it all, if like, if every single one of us registered and started sending these regular updates, they're not going to read them all. They're not going to be interested in half of what anybody sends. They're not going to investigate it. they're not going you know what mean? Like this information is going like, what is this data for? Like what are they even going to do with it? And I think the truth is it's only going to really be for families where they have concerns already that they would want to know this information.
Ashley Vanerio (25:11.168)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (25:30.188)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (25:35.406)
Mmm.
Kelly Rigg (25:36.921)
but then those families are not probably going to be providing very much data. So it's like, is this just us trying to prove that we are actually doing something? Like, what is it that they actually care about? Like, what is it that they are interested in when it comes to this information? I guess it's overreach and it's completely unnecessary. And it's just like, it's our lives. It's our private lives. We're doing things in our own days, doing things that make sense for our kids. These are extracurriculars. If someone else books a kid into a dance class, they don't have to tell someone about it.
Ashley Vanerio (25:40.792)
Well, that's the thing, right?
Ashley Vanerio (25:46.69)
Maybe.
Kelly Rigg (26:06.403)
have it investigated, like, what's all that about? So, very strange. This is all so strange.
Ashley Vanerio (26:08.566)
Right, that... Yeah.
Yeah. And so if you, if you haven't listened to the previous conversation with Wendy, or if you were like me and didn't understand even what she was talking about, because you haven't read the bill, that carefully, it, it sounds like the request is to provide details on anything and anyone your child interacts with both academically and on like an extracurricular level.
Kelly Rigg (26:24.793)
Mmm.
Ashley Vanerio (26:40.59)
So if they are attending a 5 p.m. dance class that any child is allowed to register for, whether they're in a traditional school or not, right, just your local gymnastics or whatever, swim team, swim lessons, that you then have to report information about the instructor, business, right, and share all that, their name, et cetera. And that was shocking because again, like you were saying, this...
First all, is not their main academic hub. All these things are important. Yes, they build who the child is. Of course they contribute to everything, but they're not specific to home ed. It's every child does these, parents are putting them in, you know, field hockey or soccer or swimming or whatever it is. And that's just what kids do after school. So it was shocking to me that there's this request, but it's not an equal request to traditional school children either. and it's.
Yeah, it's sharing extracurricular details as well, not just academic experiences. And I don't mind putting that information together and submitting it as part of like an end of the year packet like we do in the US. Not that you include that kind of level of detail, but you might say like, yes, my kid is doing sports. They're doing, you know, an art class or whatever. That's fine. I may include a sample of their artwork, but this feels very different from that. And so I was...
really surprised and then to hear like a bi-weekly request. Wow. That, I don't even know how I would manage that. Talk about busy working. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (28:11.619)
Yeah, it's far too much. No, no, I think it just adds too much admin, right? I know it is. And I think, let's say you've been a teacher, how much fun was the paperwork? Like how much fun was that? I mean, what is the main reason why we're losing teachers? The bureaucracy, the endless paperwork, the forms and the observations and the constant trying to monitor and grade and like keep on track of targets and expectations. And I think there's a very real fear in the home and community that essentially what this is gearing towards is more.
Ashley Vanerio (28:22.253)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (28:25.698)
Yeah, exactly.
Kelly Rigg (28:41.369)
kind of insistence on any kind of testing or kind of mandatory assessments of our children in some way. And I think the reality is like to kind of skirt around this a little bit, but to kind of just, I don't know, the concept of dominoes, like we've talked about this before, that the concept of something happening that seems innocuous, we're going to put a register in place and we're going to get you all to register on it to say that you're home educators. In a small way, if they wanted to say every single child,
Ashley Vanerio (28:49.539)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (29:10.797)
that is on this physical land has to be registered somewhere. Even, mean, just identify who they are and where they are so that obviously there is a way of keeping track of them and know that they're okay. Like we know that human trafficking is a thing. We know that these things happen. And actually from a safeguarding and safety perspective, if they really want to know where every single child is, like where their address is, who is responsible for them.
and make sure that you have seen some recent check-ins, like they have been to a GP recently, they've been to a hospital because they've had an illness, they've, you know what mean, like they've had regular vaccinations, whatever it might be. Like there should be some, to some degree, some central information that allows the government to be reassured that that child is being cared for, that there are no red flags against that child. And obviously if they disappear abroad for six months, unexpectedly, that...
There is some sort of red flag that comes up on the system that says we just need to check in and make sure that this child is safe, that they haven't been taken somewhere they shouldn't have or whatever. That I actually think to some degree we have got to have some stuff in place and there's some awful things that happen on this planet. But the issue you've got here is that a register that is solely for children out of school that becomes a legal thing, that if you don't do it you risk punishment, essentially starts to make you kind of almost criminalised.
that you as an individual group of people now have to provide certain data to the government about your children and their movements and what they're doing because they're not in a school. But let's actually talk safeguarding for a minute. I think there's absolutely no argument in the teaching community, in the parenting communities, that safeguarding in schools is not up to scratch. You've got secondary school pupils in schools
with seeing countless different teachers, all of whom are so busy and have not got the time to be properly safeguarding individual pupils. They might notice anything that happens and maybe report it or do something about it, but ultimately they have not got eyes on that child all the time. They have not got time to have a relationship with that child. They don't know everything that's going on in that child's Whatever, bullying, the abuse that happens.
Kelly Rigg (31:29.945)
still there is teacher to student abuse, there is all kinds of stuff that still happens and ultimately we are being told forcibly in the media and through what the government is trying to say with this bill that ultimately schools are safer, that children should be under the observation of a teacher, qualified teachers are better, that they should be in a school and that that is essentially what's best for them.
And I think that arguably a lot of people are deregistering their kids these days because school was not what was best for their child. That format of education, that type of education was not appropriate. And possibly they have even experienced abuse or they have experienced significant bullying or been at risk or whatever. They've pulled them out for a reason or chosen not to send them in the first place for a reason. And yeah, I think we just have to really kind of address this kind of concept that...
government really want to say right now and be really strong about the fact that their schools are safer, that we should have kids in schools, that this visibility is important and anybody outside of that is at risk. And I think that a lot of parents are feeling quite emotive about that because actually we as parents are ultimately responsible for safeguarding our children when we're putting them into groups and clubs or like a day session or leaving them with a friend or
having their uncle take care of them for a day or whatever. We are making a conscious choice to keep that child safe. We are aware of their behaviours. We're aware of their parenting style. We're aware of making sure we advocate for our children. We stand up for them. We research. We make sure they've got DBS checks and insurance. They've booked somewhere sensible to hold it. We are responsible for this. Like this is what parenting is, safeguarding our children. And it's not up to the government to do that.
Ashley Vanerio (33:14.06)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (33:18.051)
they can certainly help if they would like to put some things in place that actually do that, fine. But ultimately, saying to me that my child is better off if they went to a school because then they would have other adults keeping an eye on them, for me, just, it actually makes no sense. It doesn't make any sense at all because surely a couple of children in a family household that granted, I am talking from a space of being a...
family that gives a rat about my kids so I understand we're not all the same and I know that they are obviously concerned about the situations where it is not the case that the child is safe. I get that but putting that pressure on all of the families and making us all feel like criminals wanting to choose something which is actually a demonstration of love for our children is actually it is offensive it just is and it's such a shame.
Ashley Vanerio (33:49.742)
Sure.
Kelly Rigg (34:12.429)
that they're not, again, it's a listening thing, it's a recognition thing, it's just actually having some respect. Like, it's disrespectful.
Ashley Vanerio (34:12.95)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (34:20.406)
Yeah, well, and this kind of is, you know, leads or is the main takeaway that I had from the conversation with Wendy, which is just around the thought that children are safer in school and the name of the bill being Children's Well-being and Schools Bill. That alone just feels like propaganda because of course you want to support that. Of course, who wouldn't want to support child's well-being? Like, obviously. But when you look deeper, why are well-being and school looped together here?
Right? And why is homeschool where children aren't well and school where children are well like that? I would love to see the research on that. The numbers that they pulled to say, gosh, this is a, this is a huge glaring difference and we need to get everyone in school because that makes the difference. Obviously there are pockets everywhere where there's going to be exceptions, both in school and out of school, but it doesn't make sense to have a bill that ties them together. and for all the reasons when you put it out, I won't re list them
Go back and listen to the podcast if you didn't, if you didn't, it's incredible. But you can see that it's not going to guarantee anything. So that's why I just feel like they're coming at it from the wrong approach. In, in general, it's just not going to do what they want it to do.
Kelly Rigg (35:28.014)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (35:33.117)
Yeah, no. And I think this is what's really interesting to me and why I kind of sit in the podcast with Andy as well. I like, I wish they would just listen to us. Like if they just sat and had a conversation with a few of us, they would actually go, oh, I see. Yes, gosh, that makes entire sense. And I think what we have to therefore recognise is that we have all been shouting it. Like we've been sending our letters, we've been marching, we've been talking about it on podcasts and doing blogs and writing articles. This is not hidden information.
Ashley Vanerio (35:41.012)
Yeah, exactly.
Kelly Rigg (35:59.531)
our opinions around this are really unanimous actually. The home educating community as a whole has all come to a very similar conclusion and that is a decent amount of people. And ultimately, if we can actually take a second to listen to what they're saying and be open-minded enough to really take that on board and to think differently about it all, then maybe they might start to make some different changes. I'm talking like actual real changes, like actually trying to fix some of the stuff that's happening in school grounds.
Ashley Vanerio (36:02.926)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (36:29.313)
provide us with a bit more support. And I know that maybe there is some, like in some of what they're trying to do, that there is some altruism or there is actually something they're really trying to achieve. And ultimately I would love for them to actually be able to achieve that goal, to know that they have actually managed to protect some more kids, to stop some bad stuff from happening. I mean, I was talking to a police officer that I knew and I was kind of stressing like, okay, so imagine like as part of being in the police.
Ashley Vanerio (36:39.938)
Sure, yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (36:44.663)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (36:58.905)
They said like everybody had to put themselves on a register to say that they do a certain thing or whatever, that they're not a criminal. For example, like, I'm just going to put myself on a register to say, I am not a criminal. This is, this is me. And I said, so how much information do you want to have on that to reassure yourself that they're not a criminal? And he was just like, well, I don't know really, like nothing, like that's not really going to reassure me anything. I was like, okay, so what's next? And he's like, well, I suppose.
Ashley Vanerio (37:08.579)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (37:24.505)
they want to have like an annual report, right? And I was like, well, yeah, so, okay, so we do an annual report, but you could kind of just say whatever you want. like realistically like, yes, okay, they could investigate it further. So you can't lie on it. And I'm not encouraging anybody to do that, but ultimately you can just write a report and it's as accurate as it's written. So you hand it in and they say, okay, does this actually reassure them that you were doing a good job? Maybe, maybe not. And so then what are they going to want to do next? And he goes, well, I suppose then you want to go and actually like,
get eyes on them, observe them, notice them, like investigate them. And I was like, okay, but why are you suspicious of them in the first place? And he's like, well, I don't know. It's like, just am. And he's like, so you just want to know. And I was like, so then it just goes further and further and further, right? So like, where does this end? Like, where do we actually draw a line? And when we've talked to various MPs about it, we had a call with one who was kind of help us to try and get some messaging directly to Bridget. I really managed, I really tried to emphasize to them that
We have got to remember that these things are a slippery slope. They are a domino effect. The more we allow to happen, the more control we allow to other people to have over our choices and our lives and our decisions, the more hoops we have to jump through, the more admin we have to do. Like actually it's a slippery slope because it never fully reassures anybody. And I was like, at what point does this stop? Like, do we all have to have cameras in our homes? Like, do you need to have listening devices everywhere?
Do we have to have somebody supervising it all the time? we do you what mean? Like what will we have to do? Like and it's like it will ultimately reach a point I think where they will try and obviously push everybody into school environments again. And that's obviously I'm not talking about next year and I'm not scaring people with this. Ultimately that's we've just watched it extrapolate out and how that could eventually end up ending is ultimately that if the government wants to have full eyes on and control that it would be a mandatory attendance for all children.
Ashley Vanerio (38:57.175)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (39:20.757)
into some sort of school environment. And that obviously is hopefully never going to happen. But that's, we have got to fight these things because one tiny inch of control changed sets the tone for the next inch that they want to take. And so I think that's why I think if you're not, if you've not done anything yet or you're feeling anxious about doing something, whatever, I get it. And I really don't want anybody to feel scared that stuff's going to change. But ultimately we want to have this choice and
Getting to choose to home educate was huge for us and our family. And I want my kids to be able to choose it too. And I want their kids to be able to choose it too. And I certainly do not want the human race to reach a point where parents are not allowed to raise their own children. And it says, we have got to fight this and it's important to do it and it matters. And we don't always realize how much these things matter. But if we look at like how people felt back when...
Ashley Vanerio (40:06.358)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (40:18.553)
The government said, hey, we'll start paying for school. You don't have to pay for it anymore. You can just get a work and we'll cover the cost. However, back then people were just probably like, yes, finally, I don't have to pay for education. Great. Thank you so much. And they were probably would be for the most part, quite happy to hand over that control and to have a bit more money in their coffers. They had no idea what it would make the world look like a hundred years later. They had no idea. And it's going to have had some good things and it's going to have had some bad. And
Ashley Vanerio (40:46.094)
Thank
Kelly Rigg (40:47.785)
Every single thing, except the butterfly effect, every single thing has consequences and has knock-on effects down the line. We don't always know what they are and we don't always know what the right thing to have done is. But I feel like we have to just go with our gut on these things sometimes and recognise that when such a large group of people all feel the same way, then ultimately there's a reason for that. And I think it's good that we are still saying, think there's something I've thought before as well as the fact that the reasons why people choose to home educate now
Ashley Vanerio (41:05.837)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (41:17.197)
are exactly the same as they were back when schools first started. The drive for autonomy, the wanting to have your own family values stay intact, the wish to live a life that actually makes sense to you as individuals, that the concept of home education has always been there. People have always home educated. And ultimately, the reasons why people wanted to do it were the same then as they are now.
Ashley Vanerio (41:37.709)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (41:45.207)
This is in a book that I was reading as well, there's not to be saying that, it's something which I have read and it was really fascinating. I think it's really nice to know that because it actually helps you to realise that actually that underlying feeling has always been there. And so it's good that we feel it still and that's actually still important to us as human beings. And I think that means that the government really do need to stand up and listen to it because it's still real and it still matters.
Ashley Vanerio (41:49.794)
Mm-hmm
Ashley Vanerio (41:56.556)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (42:06.592)
Yeah. Well, I mean, you also mentioned in this, I know it's not really related to this bill, obviously, but you mentioned in your conversation with Wendy about how there are thoughts to extend potentially the childcare allowances that parents can get back to work quicker after having a baby. And of course, the time allowed to stay home after birth here in the UK is much more than in the US. I'm already jealous of the UK and basically the rest of the world for recognizing that 10 to 12 weeks is not enough time.
Kelly Rigg (42:33.663)
No, goodness me, yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (42:35.21)
But moving on to that, you know, a significant portion of the time that parents spend with their children occurs during the early years. And we all, I mean, that makes sense, right? But Western world families feel this, you know, more. And I see that compared to Italy and the time that I lived there. And just also through my Italian family, who do spend way more time together post adolescence. But for the rest of us, by the time a kid turns 12, you will have spent 75 % of the total time you're going to spend with that child.
And that number goes up to 90 % when they reach 18. And while I know everyone has different thoughts on this, I personally, I want to build a strong foundation with my children. I want to raise them, not see that happen by someone else because they're in school and sports and activities nearly all hours of the day. We all know time goes so fast. I'm on vacation right now and I can't believe I only have like a week and a half left. How, how has that happened? So it's just, I'm...
I'm seeing the time fly by. 11 year old, thought the other day, gosh, we have what six summers until she's 18 and ready to do her own thing and travel by herself with her own friends and do that, right? So I'm thinking, okay, we want to do Disney one more time. Like it's not we don't have forever. You know, if we want to do a family vacation where she doesn't have, you know, a partner she wants to go off with or friends she wants to go off with, like we need to do that now.
Kelly Rigg (43:41.337)
No! That's scary!
Kelly Rigg (43:49.433)
Mmm.
Kelly Rigg (43:57.689)
Hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (43:59.226)
so yeah, it is, it is a fast and short pocket of time that we have with these, with these amazing humans. And I, I want the ability if I so choose to spend that time with them. and we all know home educating can be a full-time job. it is a lot of work. It comes from a place of passion and love. And I, I want to preserve that for myself or anyone else who chooses to have it. So, I think that's just sort of the main.
Kelly Rigg (44:24.825)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (44:28.16)
the main crutch of all of this, right?
Kelly Rigg (44:30.391)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think hopefully those of you having listened to Wendy's episode and then on to this one as well, and hopefully you'll come and message us with some of your thoughts and stuff that you've been thinking about as well. But ultimately, we are just people and we just love our kids. And I think we are all doing such an incredible job in what is essentially quite a stressful time. And for those of you kind of feeling super overwhelmed by this and worrying about it, I guess all I want to say is that
Well, as Wendy was trying to emphasize, not many amendments have been made up until now and lots and lots of amendments are being asked for. And ultimately they are not going to want the Lords to end up striking this completely and having them resubmit it in 13 months. they are not going to want to, so it'd be like how we negotiate everything, right? Kids say, can I have five Bourbons? And you say one, and they can say two. And I'm like, all right, fine, you can have your two.
Ashley Vanerio (45:10.434)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (45:22.988)
Yeah.
you
Kelly Rigg (45:31.307)
Let's hope that as they start to put these things through that they might manage to get things to concede on say the register and that might come into effect and we might have to do that eventually. But also just because that has changed it does not mean that that domino effect will continue in the vein that it is. Actually what it might mean is that they will recognise through having to implement something like that and actually trying to tackle the
Ashley Vanerio (46:00.014)
Mm-hmm.
Kelly Rigg (46:01.305)
thousands, it makes me laugh because they're just going to be like a tsunami of people that just had like, oh my goodness, there's so many more than we realised. They're never going to be able to keep up with it, that ultimately it's going to cost them a fortune to try and keep on top of it all. And that with the constant campaigning that we do and the legal cases that do make it into court, when for example, local authorities overstep their bounds and try and force kids into school or whatever, all those legal cases where the arguments that come forth
Ashley Vanerio (46:07.491)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (46:30.979)
help to set a precedent against some of the overstep and overreaching of the local authorities. Every single time something happens like that, we get a positive outcome, which we do. We get those positive outcomes. It's how local authorities 30 years ago had the right to come into your home. They could come and just knock on the door and insist on coming inside. And they can't do that anymore. So that is a win. We have actually gone in the right direction in terms of legislation around this.
Ashley Vanerio (46:54.232)
yet.
Kelly Rigg (46:56.737)
And so ultimately there is still a lot of fighting that can still happen and will happen. And they will find it very difficult to put some of the things into play that we're worried about them doing. And ultimately there's absolutely no way that any local authority wants a two weekly update from anybody. They are just probably sitting there like sweating. Can you imagine the people in those roles right now sweating, thinking about the potential for these things to actually come into play?
Ashley Vanerio (46:56.781)
Yeah.
Ashley Vanerio (47:13.678)
No, they're not. They don't want more work either.
Ashley Vanerio (47:23.384)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (47:24.505)
Poor people, I really honestly actually feel quite sorry for them. So try not to stress, try and just, let's sign that petition. Let's get behind that one thing. Let's get that done and everything else you do on top of that be a bonus. And let's just actually do that last little push. Let's see if we can try and get some more of these amendments actually put into play. And then let's carry on caring about it after it's happened and making sure that we continue to fight for our rights as human beings for the right to parent our own children.
Ashley Vanerio (47:43.64)
Yeah.
Kelly Rigg (47:54.679)
and thank you to every single one of you who is out there doing something, whatever it is, however small, right now, whether you're just listening to this and learning about it is great. So well done. We all need a pat on the back. It is tough trying to deal with this. It's stressful. So good, well done to us all. But as always, thank you for listening and I hope this has been helpful and yeah, we'll see you again next week.
Ashley Vanerio (48:06.68)
this.
Ashley Vanerio (48:13.07)
Mm-hmm.
Ashley Vanerio (48:19.884)
Yep.
